770. - My Morning Jacket

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? I got it. Chris Black doing my... Annual dispatch from Chris Storer's office in Chicago while they shoot the bear across the street. Okay. City boys are up in Chicago. What are you doing over there? Just building. We had a meeting last night, but I hung around today because they were shooting on the stage, so everybody was here. It was nice to chat. Okay, so you're doing the studio visit. Quote unquote, but for the biggest television show. Yeah, sure. In America. Well, it was great because we were sitting in the suit you guys are up to. I was sitting in like the, you know, the video village area with Maddie and, and, you know, Jeremy walks in and I had never, I realized that I had never seen him in the, in the apron. You know what I'm saying? I'd only seen him in his street clothes over the, over the last few years. And I have to say when he's in the apron, it does hit different. I kind of see what I get. I get it more now is what I'm trying to uniform makes the man makes the person. Yeah. I'm not saying I want to fuck any cops. Do not take this the wrong way. I'm just saying uniforms come in many shapes and sizes. No, it's true. It's true. It's true. But I was just like, damn, he's really with the we got the Birkenstocks on and the apron. It's really happening. It's really happening. Yeah. That reminds me of whenever you see a tweet where like there's a there's like a person that everyone has a crush on.

And then some people don't get it. And then there's like one photo and then they post it and they're like, okay, I get it now. You know what I mean? Totally. It's all it takes. That's all it takes. Sometimes it only takes one. Yeah, get you some good dick and some Danskos. Don't talk about, don't, you know, MJ Linderman's a Dansko dick guy. I'm on that good dick. Okay. So yeah, I saw that MJ Linderman wears the Dansko clogs. If you don't know what those are there. Literally just clogs that are known to be worn by kitchen workers, nurses, people on their feet all day. Yeah. It's a very strong silhouette that takes a powerful person, male, female, or non-binary to pull off. No, it's impressive. Would you agree? Yeah, it's impressive. And I think because he's from Asheville, which is like a little crunchy, I think he's able to pull it off because it is also kind of like ceramics teacher. you know what i mean like a little bit yeah yeah but i i said because i have a pair and i remember really yeah i have a pair because they i talked about them somewhere and they sent them to me and i wore them once and rachel tashton was like don't ever wear those again and i was like you know you know what good advice i'll just keep it moving i'll never wear these no no i would you know that's happened to me before i've met people who have these really hard line fashion rules, then just because there's somebody who knows a lot about fashion more than almost every person alive, they can still, you know, it's like you have certain things where you're just like, absolutely not. And most people, your peers are going to be like, that's fine. Yeah, that's true. Like you'll meet somebody who's like, oh, there's a lot of people out there who are like, I can't stand a guy who doesn't wear socks, whereas you can't stand wearing socks. That's true. No, of course, there's different strokes for different folks. But I think in the case of the dance go, It was sound advice. And also they're very hard to walk in. They're like they're they're made like when when Jake is standing on stage and soloing, it's the same as being in a kitchen. It's the same as being a nurse. But when I'm huffing around.

You know what I mean? Okay, so good for a stand-in, not for a walk-in. Exactly. That's how I feel about Birkenstocks. That's how I feel about Boston clogs. I love them, and I think they're comfortable, but walking in them sucks. My toe has to grip to keep them on my feet. Right. But that's what I was saying. They're made to shuffle. Yeah. And that's why you don't wear the Crocs, because you have to bend the little ankle or the heel strap down, and you don't like the silhouette of that either. I don't like that. Are your Danskos, there's three options. Are they white? Patent Leather or Tabby? They're not Tabby. The Tabby Dansko? That's a good name for like a lesbian. What's up? We're Tabby Dansko. We're from Portland. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have the Tabby Danskos. I had a regular kind of black, just regular black kind of not polished. I just imagine like what kind of government military laser you'd need to cut a Tabby out of those Danskos. Bulletproof. Steel toe dance goes. Yeah, you can't take that into your high school shop. We're giving her all she can take. Yeah, this is it. The saw is bending. What do you want us to do? Yeah, it's like when the video is where it has the squishing machine, but then it's so hard it actually breaks the freaking machine. Are you kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me? I was watching the John Mulaney live show. I've watched it. I unfortunately watched it last night too a little bit. I think when you watch it actually live, it does help. The medicine goes down a little smoother, but I did like to see an appearance from Master P's alumni, Silk the Shocker. I didn't see that part. I miss Silk the Shocker. Mulaney did a thing where we're going to celebrate our essential military workers or whatever it is, and then they bring out Silk the Shocker. He's wearing the No Limit camouflage and boots and everything, and he's like, hey, I just wanted to say thanks for your service, man. He's like, yeah, totally. It was good, but I thought it was really cool to see Kim Gordon play. It was so good. It was Kim Gordon and Kim Deal, the Kims. Yeah, but I'm leaning big in the Gordon side of things. I mean, No Shade to Deal, she's a legend, she's amazing, but the A-B comp, it was... The thing about that is that I think I actually, I agree with you in theory, but then I think if I look at it musically, I actually...

like kim deals output more if that makes sense it does it does i mean to me it's like neither of them can sing in key but one of them does it really cool and the other one does it in a way where one of my eyes starts kind of twitching and you're like i mean i just feel like the pixies i don't think about the pixies that much i don't listen to them that much but they were a very important part of my life at a certain age you know what i mean i was thinking about the pixies recently how great band they Basically, when you're like, oh, everything that you think you're coming up with right now, the Pixies did in literally 1986. Not back in the 90s, but pre-Madonna, not to use that word literally, but pre-Music's Madonna entering the scene, the Pixies were like, oh, we invented Pavement, Dinosaur Jr., Neutral Milk Hotel, got it by voice. We did all that just in our garage randomly one day. But I also think that... The songs do not age well for me. I mean, I know what you mean. It makes me feel cringe. cringy-licious when I listen to the Pixies now. I also like the Breeders a lot. The one Breeders album is pretty amazing. That single is one of the best, I would say, alternative radio. First song I learned how to play on bass. Not a tough one. It's not about musicianship. It's about vibes. That's Kim Gordon in a nutshell. Maybe yes, maybe no. They were so powerful. Carolyn was like, We watch all these shows all the time with live performances, SNL, this show, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, this is the first time where I've seen somebody perform and their band looks cool. Not anything, just every band, every live performance on TV, the label, the agency handpicked them to make sure we check all the boxes and we have a female girl drummer and we have this and that. And it's just a bunch of studio musicians who...

don't look very cool they're very good especially if it's not if it's not like a real band absolutely if it's like if it's like a singer you know what i mean or whatever i mean they literally cast that like dylan from rebounder would be like all right well i think we might be playing with xyz because it's just like right we need we need a white guy with a stratocaster now but you're right though you're right it does look i mean they are they're from a different era they're actually cool You know, it's like a different, that's really what it comes down to, I think. It's just cool, like anytime we see a band that's not fake, we're like, oh, what is this? Yeah, this is crazy. Yeah, what's going on here? This is like a cool band? Dude. Those happened before, right? That's literally what I've based my entire life on, and I forget that it still happens. I completely agree. Well, I was talking to Matty earlier, because you know that, I don't know if you noticed this, but he put out a, he's putting out a hardcore album. He's in a band called Pigpen. They recorded the album three years ago. It's with one of the guys from Alexis on Fire, who's huge. You mean physically, or the band is big? They're really big. No, they're big. I was wondering if it was another large person like Matty, that's all. No, no, no. We're not talking about big backs. Pigpen is a great, it's a perfect name for Matty Matheson. Great name. But I was like, this is cool. I'm happy you did this, because he's like, we recorded this three years ago. Like, we're going to play a show. We're going to play Furnace Fest. We're going to put it out. Like, fuck it. You know, and I'm kind of like, you know, this feels like what you should do when you reach a certain level of success is you should be able to kind of, you know, live the dreams that you once had in a more realized way. Yeah, but it is a slippery slope. It is a tricky minefield to navigate in that world. Yes, it is. You know, trying to like, hey, I'm a millionaire who I want. Now I want to be in a punk band. So you really have to have the car. Your deck has to be stacked. Agreed. So people don't think you're a poser. I mean, I think that Matty's history is pretty well documented. But, like, this is what happened to Jesse from the neighborhood when he did the hardcore band.

Yeah, exactly. That's a better example because the history is a little harder to uncover, I think. I believe that it exists, but I think it was harder to uncover. So people were up in arms. Yeah, no, for sure. And I mean, you start out your first show, you're a target versus like, oh, let's give these guys a chance. They're just starting out. So, you know, it's a sea full of people who are like, all I want to do is be in a hardcore band on stage. I'm going to have to work years and years and save up time and practice. And you get to be up there because you woke up one day and you're like. You know what? I'm going to play a festival today. I didn't read into the gel breakup in hardcore news, but honestly, it's crazy to me. That band, I know, is on the larger side of independent hardcore bands, but the amount of posts I saw about that breakup on news sites and in my feed today, I was kind of like, do people care this much about this band? It was all over Breitbart this morning. My Breitbart homepage. I'm trying to refresh Drudge right now, but it's still down. Dude, we've got to Photoshop that onto the Drudge homepage. It's so good. It's so funny. But yeah, I was just like, wow, I didn't know people really cared this much about gel, but I guess maybe they do. And God bless them. I'm sorry to hear it. God bless them. I'm sorry to hear about it. I was also thinking this morning, are you a compulsive hand washer? No. No, but I wash. I just thought it was interesting because you're like a very specific cleanliness, smell, sensory person, and I'm not as much, but I'd be washing a lot, and you are a little more in tune with the germs. You look at the germs and you say, I'm not afraid anymore. I'm not afraid. I think it strengthens your immune system. I'm not afraid. I think, yeah, back on theme. I think that actually during COVID, hand washing and sanitizer got out of hand. No pun intended. And we need to get back to washing hands only when you need to. Not like every time you encounter an object or person. Okay. I mean, the real thing that bothers me is people who wipe down the plane seat. Like you're a loser. That's more of your gripe. But, yeah, but, you know, when you're out on the promenade and then. Sure.

Sure, of course. Yeah, yeah, of course. You know when you're on the promenade? Of course. You just went to anthropology, and now you're going to go pick up a goop kitchen, and then a homeless guy pulls up to you, and you give him $5, and he thanks you, and he sticks his hand out, and you've got to shake it as soon as that happens. The timer starts. We got to get washing. I don't feel like I mean, I really like to wash my hands after I eat. I hate the feeling of like grease on my hand or something food related on my hand. But other human beings, I trust them to be relatively clean. And that's probably stupid on my part. It is. You know, we do have a guest today, Jason. Jim James is the fearless leader of My Morning Jacket, a wildly popular band, I think originally from Kentucky. Louisville. The new album Is comes out, I believe it comes out Friday in a couple days. And it's called Is. It's called Is, lowercase too. We're going to get into it. We're going to get into it. Is. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and that are just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking... Something put together, a cabinet. Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf. TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, how it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world, is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code HOWLONG. Taskers book up. faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code HowLong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do all our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world...

writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. I think sometimes home could just be comforting. LA, you know, is lonely. New York is busy. Sometimes you need that quiet. Yeah, it's really great. I mean, my family's here and I've got so many friends here and stuff. It's always been my home, but yeah, I travel so much and I like to experience. uh you know so many different places that i really uh but yeah it feels good to come back to louisville and call it home for sure do you have a pool no no pool no pool no okay well okay we got a farm situation are we tilling the land yeah i guess if you if you sometimes live in la and sometimes live in new york to the most expensive places in the world We're going to want to have a basketball court at the Louisville house. You know what I mean? Frisbee golf course, home theater. Pennies on the dollar over there, right? You're like, recording studio is cute. I actually have a squash court at my house. We have so much space. Do you have anything like that? Any laser tags? Any luxury installations? I do have a full laser tag field set up.

I'm glad you guys. It's paintball-esque, but less damage. It's got a lot of barrels and grass. Are we no hunting, fishing, working for a living? Anything like that going down? No, just that laser tag course. It's a couple miles indoors, so it's huge. It takes a lot of time to maintain it. It's like the White House bowling alley. Exactly. It's kind of a full-time job. It's getting out of hand. It's affected the songwriting, hasn't it? Yeah. You're like, it's really hard to focus when the laser tag is just over your shoulder. It's really hard. So I was trying to think the last time I saw the first and last time, maybe I don't know. It's the first time I saw you. Did you play a show at, was it at the Roxy? And it feels like it was 25 years ago or 20 years ago. Oh God. Yeah. I mean, it must've been yet over 20 years ago. I remember being lucky to be in that room. I was like, these guys are really. They're too big of a band to be playing in this stupid venue right now. It wasn't like a lightning in a bottle, like, damn, we got to see the Bad Brains at CBGB's kind of thing. It was like, oh, these guys have to be in a stadium or something right now. They're just rocking too epically. So, obviously, the future would foretell that what happened to you. Well, thank you. The Roxy is a tight stage, though. It really is. It's beautiful, though. It's such a historic place when you're in there. You're like, man. No, I agree. I mean, I wonder, but I guess you've played at every size venue over the years, and I'm sure sometimes you miss the charm of places like that because the bigger places, the bigger they get, usually, you know, they can't all be Red Rocks, I guess is what I'm saying. Well, not really. It's interesting because we still play places like that sometimes, like when we go over to Europe or whatever. Okay. Our band is so interesting because we've never had like a – you know insane uh rocket success or hit single or anything you know i mean it's not like we go around the world playing the stadiums full of people or whatever you don't have a song on tony hawk's pro skater is what you're saying yeah yeah yeah in germany in germany you're playing nor you know when you're in prague you're playing normal kind of places with charm yeah where what is your what is the worst country for you guys just the worst market for oh

I don't know. It just depends on the year. It's really strange, too, because some years, a certain album will be more well-received, you know what I mean? And then we'll have a really great touring year in Europe because album X was really well-received, and then three years later... Right, 2017, huge in Thailand. Yeah, exactly. 2019, we're in New Zealand popping off. Wow, that's so interesting. So, like, certain... albums that and and i assume to you they all feel different but to the listener they're that different that it's like they respond differently oh yeah that's so interesting like as far as ticket sales go as far as tickets well as far as like i want to go see them think about it because you can never really predict how the press is going to respond and if the press is uh saying oh this album sucks you know two stars or whatever then most there's not going to be a fire that catches but if the press is like oh my god this new record is so insane people are going to see that and they'll be like, whoa, it is? Oh, my God, this is so cool. Let's check it out. There's more that kind of cultural things that happen that are really beyond your control. And it's different here in the States because we've been able to maintain more consistent touring base because it's just more affordable to play in the States, obviously. So we've been able to keep more of like a normal fan base more so than overseas because every time I do an interview with... somewhere overseas and they're like when are you all coming next and it's like if we had the teleporter we'd come all the time you know it's like but it's like there's it just costs so much to take our show overseas with shipping and flights we're gonna come out there the as soon as we're uh big enough to play there as soon as we're in the black we're gonna make it we're gonna make it over there well i mean i guess it makes sense for other artists that i'm thinking of we're like Oh, that's the album. This is our dance music album. This is our boom. This is our Latin, Latin inspired. This is Gwen Stefani's Harajuku Japanese, you know, but my morning jacket has sort of, you know, you haven't really deviated. You haven't like, this is my reggae tone. There's a nice consistency. Yeah. It's very consistent. So it's, it's very, it feels very unpredictable how certain out, like, what do you, what do you think it is about these albums? We're like, Oh, that one.

Album number four was very big in South America versus album number seven in Sweden was really huge. Like, what do you think those... It's just press. Is it just press? Is it really just press? I don't know. No, because it depends on, like, if radio picks it up or... I mean, is there, like, a spiritual undertone to these albums that only you know, maybe? No, I don't really think about any of that stuff because it's so... He's like, no, no. I just can't... I don't give a shit. I just can't think about it. Because really, we're just trying to make music. You know, it's like there's a certain thing that happens when the universe sends me music that I try to bring it to life in this world. And so much of it is out of my control because I realize at the end of the day, it's so interesting because the albums always make themselves. And I... I used to really fight with that and struggle with that because I'd have some kind of egoic vision of making a heavy metal record or folk record or some kind of this or that record. But at the end of the day, I can't control what songs succeed or fail in the recording studio no matter how much I like them. So the more I've let go of that, the more and more fun it's become because I can just kind of show up and do my best. know at the end of the day the universe is gonna create the album that needs to be created at that moment in time so then then how that's received around the world is even more out of my control you know it's like it's just you really can't even i used to get so lost in it i used to get you know my ego and everything would get so lost in the success or failure of our records or whatever and now it's like of course i want i want everybody to like everything i ever make of course i still have that desire but the more i can kind of let go of it the more fun it's become no that's that's called that's called growing up that's mature because i mean i think a lot of a lot of people in your position have not levitated to that level yet because it's a very difficult place eventually you'll start flatulating in public that's how little you'll care but it really is grow i mean it's one of those things where it's like how do you figure out the secret meaning of life and you know there's obviously no shortcut to it it's just

you know miles on the dash is the only way you can get that confidence oh i don't know i mean i think it's just a combination for everybody of trying to do the work of trying to uh understand yourself and love yourself because we come from uh you know some place that that we can't fully understand as humans and and we try to label it god or you know we try to give it all these labels but the truth is nobody really knows but i feel like the more i kind of tap into that field of consciousness or love or God or whatever we want to call it. And I realized that I'm in this body, this lifetime called Jim for some kind of reason. And one of the main things I can do is try to love Jim rather than destroy Jim. And in that process, the more that I can love and accept Jim, the more that I can love and accept everybody else that I encounter. And I feel like that's kind of one of the main processes. And I think about it in music so much, too, because it's like I care so much and I put so much into everything I do. But then at the end of the day, I have to step away because I know it's not in my control because I see it every album. You think song A is going to be the best song on the album. And it doesn't even work. For whatever reason, you can't get the recording right. And you have to walk away from it. And the more you fight that, the more you suffer. And the more you accept that, the more you move on and you find that actually Song In was the greatest song that everybody liked the most. And it was just some 30-second voice memo that I didn't even think would turn out to be that good. It's just so fascinating. You just described Billie Eilish's career. In what way? like those 30 second voice memo like oh this was just a random little throwaway thing put it up on tiktok and you know six days later it's the number one song in the world because like oh i did i had no idea that was just some little well i think i think that's so cool i think i feel like there's a real magic in billy eilish and what uh phineas and her are doing because i feel like they're bringing some of the most fresh

and beautiful energy to the pop music sphere that i've seen so long because i feel like they speak in this really interesting honest way that i think is really healthy for people where i feel like a lot of pop music is so manufactured and so image driven and so perfection driven i feel like there's real like that uh god that what was i made for song that they did for barbie unbelievable you know it's like i feel like there's like uh Yeah, I feel like Billie Eilish and Kendrick Lamar, you know, like, there's some real, like, high-level shit going on in that pop sphere. They tapped into something. Yeah. Something heavy. It's unbelievable. It's interesting with Kendrick Lamar because I can't listen to it and I don't really like it, but when anything crosses over that much, you start to wonder, like, what is it? You know, like, what are the factors? Billie Eilish, you're absolutely right. There's like a way that she speaks that's just relatable to people. And that's like you can't fake that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but it does have that homeschooled energy to it or maybe a little theater program energy to it that somehow deters Chris and I a little bit, despite us respecting it greatly. There's just something about it where, you know, I want a My Morning Jacket. I want some real shit, you know what I mean? Even though it feels, like you said, Billie Eilish is not. manufactured compared to you know all the other sabrina carpenters and whatever pop stars it's still very manufactured in comparison to you know a real band like what you're in in my opinion well i don't know i think when you start thinking about who's real and who's not i think that's the ego speaking and uh i feel like at least in my life i keep trying to step back And know that everybody's doing the best they can. And there's certain things that the universe wants to happen that I'll never understand. And the more I kind of step back, because I used to carry so much. bitterness and so much jealousy and like why is band x so popular and we're not that popular why does everybody like this you know i used to create so much can you say who band x is please oh any band you know over the course of any man there's so many like anybody we've been around for so long we've been around for over 25 years now so over the course of our

career every year you know there's some different band that's like they can't build they can't build stadiums like who you want i got all imagine dragons was 2013 and then we got yeah no yeah it's just interesting but i find like the more that i've let go of that the happier i've become you know it's just like so i know that that in the past when i was judging people or uh or criticizing people or whatever, I saw that that was out of my own insecurity or out of my own jealousy, things that I hadn't dealt with in myself. And when I tried to bring the focus to myself, I realized that everybody's on their own trip. Everybody's fighting their own battle. And just because something doesn't speak to me doesn't mean it's not valid for so many people out there. Because I feel like there's a... I'm trying to – yeah, I'm trying to get to that point. I'm trying – I'm really having a hard time getting to the point where I can realize – Well, I think about it this way because I think it's like – Things just aren't for me. You know what I mean? Some things just aren't for me. Well, I think if you think about – obviously, as long as something is not hateful or racist or – Sure. Sure, sure, sure. But beyond those things, I really do think about – We have conversations about it all the time, that like there's just certain things that just aren't for us. You know, they just are not made with us in mind. And but that doesn't mean that they're not valid. Or you see like the way that people respond to like Sabrina Carpenter, for example, that you mentioned, or, you know, a lot of these pop acts or the phenomenon of Taylor Swift. You know, it's like the. something's going on there. You know what I mean? Like something is reaching people. For sure. Yeah. There's no denying that. I agree. Yeah. I like to hope that that's helping people in this life. You know what I mean? It's like, there's, there's something about it. Like all my favorite music helps me. And I love to think about like, hopefully for all of these millions and millions of people who are, you know, vibing on Sabrina Carpenter or Taylor Swift or whatever, hopefully that's really, really. healing their lives you know i mean like changing their lives yeah i'm sure i mean for for i think when people hit a certain size like the size of taylor swift's popularity people begin to say you know or speculate evil or dubious intentions you know like some some type of dark arts are at play for somebody to achieve such a level of size and greatness but also she is you like you said she is saving

potentially millions of people's lives with her music oh absolutely 100 but you know the devil works in mysterious ways i think it's both and you know i think i keep trying to hold this i love this new concept of both and you know that you can hold both and somebody can be uh like like for example taylor swift like both a an unbelievable business person you know totally like business minded like success minded and an unbelievable singer performer songwriter that that literally saves millions of people's lives you know you can kind of hold both those things because i think there's a thing in the indie rock school that i came up in that maybe you all came up in a similar school where there's this notion that like any sort of success means you sold out or any sort of like uh things like that means instantly that your music isn't valid or your music isn't uh doesn't matter you know and i think that's such a load of bullshit because you see how uh bands like nirvana they saved my life and i would have never heard of them if they were on mtv because i didn't have a cool older brother i didn't read cool music magazines i had no concept of what was cool or not you know like i was a Little kid living in Kentucky with with no nobody to tell me what was cool or not. And I felt Nirvana through the fucking mainstream. It literally saved my life. That's a good way. I agree with you. Jason, at least I feel like I've unlearned that sort of attitude. I am happy for people to succeed, especially if it's good. I think the only things that succeed also succeed for a reason beyond because people like it so much. When it's good enough, it's good enough and it rises to the top. I guess an interesting example of what you just said. Do you think people are finding Taylor Swift's music in 2025 and then using that as a jumping-off point to let music save them? You heard Nirvana, and you didn't just stop at Nirvana. That opened your doors to all this cool music, and you explored the deep, dark corners, and you learned about so much new shit.

I don't know if people are looking at Taylor Swift and being like, oh, this is good, and she's influenced by Joni Mitchell, and I'm going to dive into Amy Mann and this and Tori Amos. I don't think that people are doing that anymore. I mean, I want them to. Well, I would disagree because I think Taylor Swift does a really great job of trying to work with all sorts of different artists. Imagine how many people she turned on to Bonifair or The National. That's true. Taylor Swift does a great job. Goddammit, Jim, you got a good answer for everything. I'm over here thinking like, oh, wow, she turned the world on to J.J. Abrams' daughter. Wow, great. And then you listed amazing, perfect examples. Those are good examples. Unfortunately, that's tough to dispute. That's tough to dispute. I think about this shit a lot, man, because I think whenever we want to front on somebody. that's that's our job to like look at ourselves to like check ourselves you know like if we think something i just because i've been that way my entire life i've been so critical and so jealous and so like and i've just realized that man that's shit when do you when do you think this when did you when did you tackle this demon like how long have you kind of been on the other side of that or at least attempting when was the first ceremony jim yeah yeah yeah This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen.

Hi, Talk House Network listeners. It's your old friend, Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston. South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. Well... No, it is all part of a thing because I've really tried my entire life to do. I really believe in therapy, and I've had a long list of different therapists and stuff over the years. And really in the pandemic, I was really so fortunate to finally find a therapist that I really vibed with. And we've been working together for the last four or five years, and we do EMDR and parts work therapy. And, you know, I spend a lot of time. working with him and parts work therapy is so interesting because you you go into your mind and you create this safe space where you give the parts of you a chance to speak that have never been heard before you know like the and it could be parts that are literal like the the 12 year old part of you that was bullied or the you know the quality control part of you you know it can really be anything you need to address and for me i found a lot of these parts didn't get the attention that they deserved. And if I can give them attention and love, they can actually heal. And so like the jealous, bitter teenage part of me whose band was always ridiculed and everybody always hated everything I did, I carried that bitterness into life. And I was so mad and so angry whenever band A or band C or B was so much bigger than mine wearing a jacket. I'm like, oh, such bullshit. You know, they suck.

And the more that I've worked with that and healed those parts, I've realized, whoa, man, like all of this, this anger and this bitterness and this jealousy, this is on me. You know, this is my job to heal this shit because everybody's out there trying their best. And some people get sucked into the machine and some people hit a zeitgeist and some people speak or whatever and it explodes and people love it. And it's like, you know, I feel like so much of it is out of my control. And all I can do is show up and just. because I love music so much and I play music every day and I dream music and I think music. And for me, it's like, I feel like I'm finally moving past this sense of it being a competition and that somebody's going to win and somebody's going to lose because that's bullshit. And I think at the end of the day, I just like love it so much. I feel so fortunate to be able to. even make a living playing music you know like what a fucking miracle you know that i can make my living being a rock and roll band it's rarefied air that's rarefied air it is it's a very not very few of you get to do that you're you're you're currently living the dream and you have to remember like oh my life can be good oh it's so beautiful and i think once you let go of all that bullshit um that's just the thing i've really noticed because i was fronting all the time and tripping and jealous and scared and angry and it's just like anything that triggers you like that that's that's something you need to look at well that's interesting that's interesting also because you've i mean you've been pretty successful you know and respected for a long time i would say you know what i mean but it was never good enough you know i mean my wounded soul it was never good enough because i was so jealous you know no matter how good i did i'm like well I guess we're doing okay, but we're not doing as good as Taylor Swift or whatever. Yeah, you'll never give yourself a credit. You're like, we're bigger than Ween. Why are they headlining over us? What the fuck? Well, yeah, all those trips, you could really get into all that shit. It's insane. And it's such a relief to let it go.

It is funny, though, that music is, I mean, I look at other podcasts the same way. Like, I'm like, I want to destroy these fucking people. Like, I want to be bigger. I want to be better. We are better. And it's like, yeah, what purpose is, how is that serving me? It is definitely not serving me. But getting rid of that, it feels like I would, I feel like it would affect maybe my drive, but maybe it wouldn't. No, I think that's an illusion because you can work for your own success and wish for your own success. That's healthy. Work on your shit and craft your shit and believe in it and show up for it. But I think the more that we wish for everybody's success, the more we blossom and the more it becomes this we, this us versus us versus them. All ships rise type shit. Yeah, everybody rises because that's the truth, man. The more we rise with everybody. the more we get together the more everybody rises and the more you rise you know it's like that i really believe that it's like there's not a it's not a competition but that's the fucked up thing about the world and the digital age too because they more than ever they're fucking making it a competition there's a number count for everything yeah it's like here's the numbers they don't lie you know it's like and that's bullshit too because you don't know like how what a profound effect maybe one of your episodes has on somebody you know and maybe your number counts aren't where you want them to be or whatever but you don't know hey hey chill chill the number our numbers are fine our numbers are fine okay let's not get into that let's not get into that no but i know what you mean i know what you mean like you're absolutely right you're absolutely right i mean i think that like it doesn't it's just like the human condition but i think music specifically i've always been i've always found it strange like i'm not like anti-awards guy like i think that's fun cool and like winning a grammy is an honor but i also think that like you are turning things into a competition a little bit and it's you know it's i don't know if that's with the purest intentions i guess oh yeah no i agree it's a strange thing to award awards for sure that's a very strange concept it's it's cool to to win obviously sure but i guess i guess the idea of pitting people against each other

that are probably friends or at least like there's a lot of mutual respect and then, you know, record labels spending a fortune to make it happen. It's all just very involved. You know, it's all very involved. Well, I think, again, that's, you have to hold the both end, you know, because you have to work hard for your own success and be excited if you get those kind of things. But if you're really stoked for everybody else, that's beautiful. You know, like if you're stoked for your friends that won a Grammy or whatever, that's like, rather than being bitter and jealous and letting that. Yeah, when they cut to Demi Moore at the Oscars and she lost to Mikey Madison from Enora and she couldn't hide her face. She just couldn't. She just couldn't. She just couldn't see it. She just could not hide that she was like, I really thought this one was fucking mine. Like, I've been doing this for 40 years. You know what I mean? I really needed a dub today. I appreciate that, too, though. I think there's some honesty in that where it's like, you know, if that's how you feel, that's how you feel. I don't know if it's the most healthy thing, but it's probably better to let it out than hold it in. Yeah. Well, sure. Always. Always. When you were talking about parts work, how exactly could you give me an example of how. that actually works what are the parts so everyone's got their different parts so like you said when you were 12 years old and getting bullied or something like that you didn't allow that person to heal totally yeah it's so if you if you you know you're working with therapists and you're uh in a quiet place and you kind of close your eyes and create a space in your mind that feel safe to you, you know, a place. It could be a real place or you could imagine it, you know. And I kind of picture myself sitting in this circle of trees and I'm sitting by a campfire and I'm I'm me. I'm currently just just Jim as he is now. But then I invite whoever needs to come out to to talk with me. And it's really interesting. Like these different parts of your subconscious will step forward. Yeah. It was the 12 year old.

that was bullied or if it was the uh or for me i did a lot of work with the uh drunk part of myself the alcoholic part of myself and a lot of work with him like realizing that he was actually uh or he is actually my healer he's like my uh magician but for most of my life he didn't know any other magic than alcohol because i wanted to disappear and he would he would make me disappear you know and i worked with him so much that gradually Rather than erasing him and downplaying or making fun of him constantly, he grew into this really beautiful being that now that I've been sober for two and a half years, we've made a lot of peace. And I've really thanked him and the alcohol. Like, I've been able to see, like, without the alcohol, I would have killed myself a long time ago. Like, I couldn't, I've never really been able to handle this world that well. And so I was able to see the alcohol as a bridge, you know. like the bridge got to to land and i was done with it you know it's like i don't and if i kept drinking i would only be then i'd start tearing down the bridge or whatever you know so that's just kind of an example of that's a good example no that makes sense parts were that makes sense i mean that's that's um Did you have like a rock bottom situation or did you just kind of know it was time? No, it was really interesting because I had been working with my therapist for, I don't know, a year or two while I was still drinking. And he was really great because he never put any emphasis on me quitting drinking or anything. You know, there's never any pressure from him or anything. And I just kind of realized slowly the more I did this parts work and the EMDR work that I had this big revelation where I was like, I cannot. How can I sit here and look myself? and look into my soul and and and still complain about not being happy or still complain about being lonely if i'm drinking myself to death you know it's like how can i how can i validly sit here and honestly say that i'm trying my best if i'm fucking drinking myself to death all the time that's what i love most about life you know like i just had this moment i was like i gotta

recognize and that i'm an alcoholic and i need to put this shit down or try to you know because it's not easy you know and and put it down and only then kind of say okay now you're really trying you know now you're really looking at shit as it is yeah and now let's see what's happening you know let's deal with life a little more raw exactly yeah because because alcohol is a powerful drug you know alcohol For me, it was an escape, and it would drive the car. You know, I would give it the keys, and I'd be like, I don't want to drive this fucking car anymore. You drive it. You know, and it would. That's a good metaphor. That's a good metaphor. Take the wheel, chief. Right. Take the wheel, Jim Beam. And he knows how to have fun. Yeah. That's the, I mean. Yeah, it's wild. Are you Cali sober now? Are you? Yes, I still really enjoy. psychedelics occasionally, and I really enjoy microdosing mushrooms and things like that. And I've found a lot of healing in psychedelic therapies too, like ayahuasca and ketamine therapy or 5-MEO-DNT. I've explored a lot of those therapies, but I really tell people when I talk about that stuff. You really have to be safe with that stuff, and you have to find people you can trust or people that are recommended. Don't go looking through the yellow pages and pick out an ayahuasca person at random. You know what I mean? Be really careful about it. I opened my alternative weekly newspaper and found a couple practitioners in the back here. I was going to call one. I was going to get one to call. Don't do the Yelp-sponsored ketamine guy in the valley. But is this stuff all – like with mushrooms, for example, would you do that in an attempt to have fun and cut loose or is it strictly kind of therapeutic to you at this point? Both and, Chris. Both and. Both and. Oh, yeah. Both and. That's the best part about drugs. Both and. That's a perfect example, honestly, because if you think about mushrooms, you can take a large dose and go on a heroic journey, you know, go on a crazy dark night of the soul heroic journey or whatever. But the great thing is, because that's funny, man, like the way we grew up in Kentucky, every substance we ingested, you weren't doing it to like have a little fun. You're doing it to get as fucked as you possibly could. That's right. Oh, yeah, baby. To get so fucked up. Everything that we did is like, oh, we're eating mushrooms? Let's eat a whole fucking bag.

drinking we're going to drink 20 miller lights and a bottle of tequila whatever it is you know we're going to mars every day exactly but you know as you as you realize more and more you do see that some of these things like mushrooms are a perfect example because i still love to um to stay out late and i love to go to bars with friends and go out dancing and stuff so that's a perfect time for me to take like a mushroom microdose if i still want to stay up till you know two or three or four in the morning dancing with everybody else that's drinking And, again, a safe thing, especially if you compare taking a small microdose. Yeah, exactly. Or drinking or fucking 20 beers. Really anything. Yeah, really anything. When you put it like that, really anything. The amount of water you're going to drink in that night is through the roof. Oh, my God. I got my hydration for the month. Well, I guess speaking of that, I mean, the good part about microdosing mushrooms and drinking a bunch of water and dancing with your friends as you wake up the next day, without that horrible hangover, when you were an alcoholic and alcohol was driving the truck and you were a sitting shotgun, did it get to a point where you enjoyed the hangover and it would be like a fun game and escape as well? Oh, absolutely. That was the thing eventually, because in my alcoholism, in the beginning, uh when i didn't know i didn't quite understand the powers of different alcohols i would drink uh bourbon or i would drink uh heavy beers and i would get so sad and so depressed and leave the party early french exit you know go home and cry you know go home think about killing myself you know really brutal bro when the ipas are too hazy it can fuck you up when the ipa is too hazy it's hard it's wild well you don't really understand chemically a lot of times that one thing is different but then most thing was when i discovered a premium silver tequila and i discovered the power of that then it was like inverse where it's like yes it was always like just rocket to the moon fun but then it was the inverse where it became i was a salivating dog and all that i ever could look forward to was getting fucked up you know it doesn't matter

because i'm a very functional alcoholic and i like never drink before shows i never drink before recording sessions like but all i could ever think about the entire time was when do i get that bottle of tequila next like when's it coming you know and you're like a salivating dog that's chained to this uh this existence you know it's like chained to the don julio yeah when you're chained it's sad okay so so when you switch from from bullet bourbon to the cabo wabo Things got different is what you're saying. Things change for you a little bit. I'm imagining, you know, a Sammy Hagar anamorphized into the big dogs, big dog character. And you're just. I was always a Casamigos guy. That was my favorite of the tequila. I'm a big Casamigos guy. I mean, look, I'm happy those guys made so much money. They needed more money, so I'm glad that they were able to sell that. I actually never think about the difference because I've been sober for like eight years, eight and a half years. I've never thought about... the differences in like how alcohol makes makes you feel kind of do you know what i mean like i was oh yeah like drinking is drinking not drinking is not drinking but the difference between a bottle of red wine or a bottle of whiskey or a bottle of tequila is quite different actually oh yeah especially when you're drinking a whole fucking bottle of it like i would you know sure i think i just i can't remember when i discovered that but it's like i realized like If I drank a whole bottle of bourbon, I am fucking crying at home. You know, I'm leaving the party and going home to cry and want to kill myself. But if I'm drinking a whole bottle of tequila, it's like 9 a.m. and I'm still partying. You know, it's like the sun's coming up. All the other people have gone home to bed. And I'm at home with exile on Main Street. Cranked, you know, all the way as loud as it can go. Damn, you sound like me for real, for real. This is great. Doing the Mick Jagger dance in the guest bathroom. Oh, yeah. Okay, but then what about the secret third thing? Malt liquor, you wake up, you fought a guy in the parking lot, right? Makes you want to fight, huh? Luckily, I was never violent, but malt liquor was definitely my drink of choice in college. I feel like all I ate in college was Papa John's breadsticks and malt liquor. Papa John's breadsticks.

Great food item. Highly underrated, I would say. Okay, well, that's a good transition into what you're eating versus drinking. How have you switched up your nutritional intake? Well, I'm a really healthy eater. I try to be a really healthy eater. I'm a really repetitive eater, so it's pretty easy. I love a good classic. eggs breakfast but i eat like ezekiel bread and i always have some kale or some kind of greens or whatever stuff and uh yeah you know i love coffee so i always have a double espresso or two in the morning and uh most time i eat really healthy for dinner i eat some uh brown rice and fish and broccoli and uh wow i'm really i'm really into ezekiel stuff jimmy's dialed in ezekiel stuff is good i mean it's yeah you know especially like you can kind of get it everywhere You know what I'm saying? It's available. You can get it at Publix or you can get it at the health food store. You can get it in Kentucky, gosh darn it. Yeah, you get it in Kentucky, exactly. Do you believe that... I was actually talking to my wife about this this morning, about really thinking of food as medicine. It sounds like you're living a similar diet there. Well, it's crazy how much people skip over these huge parts. They're like, I'm not feeling very good. Do you exercise? No. Do you eat McDonald's three times a day? Well, yeah. These fucking basic things. Everybody's like, you know, myself included for so long. Are you addicted to Percocet? Well, yeah. Well, it's crazy. It's like our culture is like, don't even think about these simple things. Just start taking these pills. You know, like don't even think about that. You don't even walk around the fucking block. You know, you don't do any exercise. Gee, why do I feel so sluggish and terrible? You know, it's like that shit. I think everybody, again, it's like you got to like. Try and look at yourself and get real with yourself and be like, okay, I'm bitching and complaining about how bad I'm feeling. What are the basic things that I'm not addressing? You know, like am I eating like shit? The supplements aren't going to save you. The supplements aren't going to save you from playing video games eight hours a day and eating Papa John's. I've been taking the easy way out my whole life, and it's all fucked up. Maybe the hard way is the way to go. Well, are there any – it seems like you've got it all under control. The album is getting good reviews. You're eating good.

Mental is good. Physical is good. Where in your life are you still taking the easy way out? Where do you need to finish the whole game? What do you got to do? Well, we'll never finish the whole game. The whole thing is, and I hope, I really hope I don't, I hope I don't come off as if I think I've got it all figured out or anything because I'm far, far from that. No, not at all. I'm just curious because I'm on a similar path as you, and I'm just wondering. I know that you're never going to reach the singularity and be happy, but there's always something that we're working on, right? Well, I still really deal with self-worth stuff. I still really deal with depression or self-loathing or those kind of critical voices we were talking about earlier. But it's really interesting because I'm finding now something will happen and I'll get bummed or I'll start. start to rip myself to pieces but i'll catch myself quicker and and i've had to i have this voice inside of myself people call it the observer um and i know that my true soul is present behind this person called jim and and i can more quickly now let my true soul catch jim when jim starts to tear himself apart or jim starts to get really sad or whatever, I can catch him. You can intervene. You can intervene. I can. I can say, like, hey, man, let's take a deep breath. Let's chill out. You know, like everything's fine. You know, let's take a walk around the block. Let's do what we need to do to move the energy. And, you know, that's the thing I think is not getting lost in the energy. Because my entire life I just got swept away by it. You know, I'd be like, something bad happened. I'd get depressed. I'd go down the pipeline. Oh, I'm just a piece of shit. Everything sucks. My music sucks. Blah, blah, blah. You know, and it's like. You're able to catch it sooner. Yeah. But that's a lifelong battle. You know, that's something that. I'll be working on until the day Jim dies. Well, my lifelong battle is dessert. So if you have any tips on kicking dessert, the sweet tooth is going to be my downfall. So any tips you have on any healthy. Chris, I've got a great overnight oat recipe for you that's going to really knock your socks off. Dude, the sweet tooth is tough. You suffer from the tooth as well. What is your go-to, a cookie, an ice cream, pecan pie? Well, you know, the main thing I think with the sweet tooth is, I think with most of the stuff,

is give yourself that thing 10% of the time. You know what I mean? Here's the thing, Jim. Here's the thing, Jim. You and I both know this. You and I both know this. That's hard to do. It is. So that means, Chris, you're allowed to have a dessert three times a month, but Jim is saying make it a fucking whammy. Like Alton Brown, a chef, he said that he lost weight by having one drink a week versus whatever. But when he has that one drink, it's a martini the size of your fucking head. You know what I mean? So when you're going to have that dessert, kill yourself with that dessert. I don't want to do it 10% of the time. I'm getting the full, yeah, I'm getting the five-pound bag of M&Ms. I'm going to find the bottom of it before I go to sleep. Hot fudge sundae, one spoon. Yeah, no, I think that dessert, it's just the, it also, though, feels like to me that it's the only thing I have left. because I don't drink or do drugs anymore. So I'm like, well, this is all I got. Fuck it. Like, what else can I do? But I go through phases how I think about it. Yes. Maybe you could reduce your social media usage, Chris. What is that going to do? How does that help my dessert problem? Well, that is going to alter your cortisol levels and allow you to lose stubborn tummy weight. In a way that all of the work... Okay, all right, Huberman. All right, Huberman. Well, I'm just saying, bro. Food is medicine. It's true, though. Food is medicine. What's your social media intake like, Jim? Are you not on it at all? No, I try to stay on for as much as I can. I do pop on it two or three times a day. But I found the more... Again, man, it's so interesting. The more and more peaceful I've gotten, the more and more that I've come to love Jim, the less and less I really have an interest to look at it. Oh, shit. That's bad for me, Jim, because my screen time is up, so I must hate Chris. I hate Chris. Yeah. I was talking about it with my wife this morning. It's a direct correlation of the amount that you're on your phone. The more you're on the phone, the more you're depressed, anxious, worried.

And the less you're on your phone, the more things are going better. Correlation. When Jim is doing good. Yes, absolutely. At Jim is not necessary anymore. I mean, it's really true. It is true. I think one thing that helps. Honestly, this is a practical tool. I don't know if you've tried this yet. Because I really enjoy. I have. various friends and acquaintances that will send me really cute dms on instagram you know like my mom will send me really cute you know kitten videos whatever that i i really enjoy those right my mom babe it's from my mom i promise no but one thing one practical i don't know if you've tried this is delete the app from your phone but give yourself 10 minutes in the morning to look at it on your desktop, you know, like, like give yourself your Instagram time in the morning or whatever your social media is and look at it on your desktop while you eat breakfast or whatever you want to do. But then if you delete it off your phone, then you're not going to, and I leave a blank hole where it used to be. Oh, nice. That's dramatic. I like that. Taylor Swift has lyric. When I swipe to it, I'm like, dude, you deleted this thing for a reason. And it's a battle, too, because then I'll fucking re-download it the next time I'm trapped at the airport or whatever, and then I'm addicted to it for a month again. It is a battle. It really is. Because I know a handful of musicians that aren't on it, and it's partly because they know it's better for them, but also because there are a point in their career where they don't have to be, almost, you know what I mean? It's like, if you want to look at it for pleasure, that's fine, but for us, it feels a little bit like part of the job, and for you, it's part of the job. but there's people that do it for you if you want to be off of it. And that's a great position to be in. He's got a team of people in the Philippines, and they are responding to all the messages, all the DMs. You want feed pics, here they come. They work for pennies in the dollar. I just don't. That's the one. I think it is freeing, and I know. And also the people I know. I mean, some of them are really young, which is even crazier. Like a 25-year-old that doesn't use social media is unheard of, really. I mean, in my life. Well.

I think we're finding that it really hasn't helped the world that much. It's really divided us more than it's helped us. But I do, I like to think of it as a bulletin board because imagine just for fun that social media had absolutely no opinion and it was only a cool bulletin board to find out about new albums or new podcasts or new artwork. Because that's when I pop onto it, it's like... oh man what what shows are playing this week i'll check out this club or that club or whatever you know those kind of things or it's really cool to see like my friend my friend's band be like oh we've got a new album coming out you know like that kind of stuff is so cool that's the actual use that's the actual how we should use it that's how i try to think of it is like a bulletin board or whatever that's how it used to be that is how it used to be now the problem is the bulletin board is like oh my friend is playing a show and this guy had a baby and my old roommate got a promotion that's awesome and then the algorithm is like you want to see a baby explode right and then you're like no i don't you're like well i think there's some bum fights the main danger i think yeah of it right now is this illusion that everybody's opinion equals the news you know and there's like this this this obsession with uh that whole concept and i think again it's like it's not helping anybody out to constantly hear everybody fighting about the news online. But you want to stay informed or whatever. So again, it's like if you can find the most trustworthy news source, like BBC or whatever, NPR, whatever it is for you that you feel like is the best non-biased news source, so you're still informed. But then you're not scrolling through all the bullshit of just people fighting and trying to shove their opinion down your throat. Yeah. I mean, do you know? Yeah. Everybody I follow is a fucking idiot. No offense, you know, but everybody's a fucking idiot. And it's like, there's, you know, I don't care what you think about this, but I have no choice because I have to. I have to get through it all to find the stuff that I like. You know, you're absolutely right. Yeah, I think hopefully, I mean, it seems like the future will be small, bespoke news sources. You know, three or four people will form a sub stack and pay themselves a salary and just make the news. And that's all, you know, it's going to cost you five bucks a month. And it's because we can't trust major news sources anymore. You know what I mean? No.

That's why we reach to the opinions of our peers. It is wild. I was wondering if this is the first album that you've made sans alcohol, but instead with, you know, frog venom and ketamine and all these, you know, ayahuasca's. How did that affect the music, the rhythms where your bandmates like, oh, bro, we got to pull this like. to loom Third Eye back a little bit, or did it all flow and work well? No, it's really all been a great flow, and I think it's really beautiful because all the other guys have been on their own healing journeys to try and be more peaceful. Because I think we can all see now, we almost didn't make it many times as a band. Depression nearly ate me alive or I was injured falling off stage because I wasn't treating myself right. All these things I think we're seeing now how lucky we are to still be alive and to still be able to make music. And I think we've all been able to find this beautiful new way to let go and let somebody in like Brendan O'Brien. Let somebody in who can be a coach for us and a guide for us that we can. show up and work as hard as we have ever worked or harder but in a really beautiful new uh not attached way or whatever where you're like everything is so important and so beautiful and it's also so unimportant and it's all gonna fall away anyway you know and i can't control why song a doesn't come together in the studio you know like Even though I love the song, I think it's one of the best songs ever did. We tried as hard as we could. But for whatever reason, the universe didn't want it to come together. But then there's all these other songs that came together that were so beautiful, too. And I didn't try to cling to any of it. And it was really beautiful working with somebody like Brendan, too, who...

was able to remove his ego from the process and at no point is he trying to do this to inflate his legend or to like inflate his ego he is like so in service of the music it's it's insane you're just like trying to like uh all get together to see what's going to happen and you never know you know but like he's such a great coach at like making each band member feel inspired and want to work as hard as they can and also being able to steer the ship away if something's not working. Let's not kill ourselves or beat ourselves to death because this song just won't work. Let's do another song. Let's do another thing. What is his... I know that this was a new experience for you, but did you find... Like, what is his style in the studio? You know, is it super hands on? Is it super like vibe guy? You know, is he trying to pick up a guitar? Oh, yeah. It's so cool because he does everything. But he has this way that I assume it what it must be like to play for a great sports coach. where he jumps in there on the floor with you. We're talking. He'll pick up a guitar. He'll chug. But he also really, really listens to everybody. And he's never trying to force his agenda. But he's always brutally honest. He's like, man, this chorus just isn't working for me or whatever. But he does it in this way where it's like it never is coming off as like... part of his agenda or whatever you know it's just like he has this really cool way of working that i think i mean clearly it works i mean the guy's got a fucking murderer's row of of records under his belt yeah it clearly works yeah so so you you've described him a few times as being a coach what is the difference between a coach and a producer well sadly a lot of like big name people carry big egos with them and they want to tell you how many grammys they've won they want to tell you why your opinion's not as valid as theirs because they made three records with elton john or whatever you know i mean there's a lot of that there's a lot of that bullshit you know yeah yeah yeah of course and for a long time i was i was really scared to uh try and work with somebody like that because i didn't want to i'd had some experience like that and i was like i don't want that kind of energy in the studio i'm gonna do it myself you know and and that was also my ego

trying to overcompensate for my own self-loathing of like, I'm going to produce it. I'm going to coach the team. I'm going to also be the star player on the team. I'm also going to write songs. I'm going to do the guitar. So, you know, it's like, and when I can step back, you're going to sell the merch. I'll drive the bus. Totally. It's like a testament to, uh, to Brandon's ability to, uh, coach in this way that, uh, is not heavy handed, but, but is always honest. And I feel like, I think I also like, I'm trying to give myself a pat on the back too, for like, being able to just kind of step back and not keep trying so hard. Yeah, it's a big deal. Well, it's also just to relinquish, even if you aren't, what feels like control, you know what I mean, in some ways. And there's kind of like a new sheriff in town in some regard, which I think is very hard to do after this long. And obviously the results were worth it. Is it sort of in the school of the Rick Rubin style of quote-unquote producing? I don't know. I don't know what that school is. I don't know what you mean. Obviously, I know who Rick Rubin is, but what do you mean by that school? I think the school that is sold of Rick Rubin is kind of like... he doesn't he's just in the room it's like a vibe only no no oh no it's definitely not that like you like you go to his compound and then he sort of like guides you in like a guru kind of way no it's how he believes the record should go i think it's completely different from that and i'm not sure i've never worked with rick i've met him a couple times and obviously his his work speaks for itself too because he's made so many unbelievable records. But no, I feel like Brandon is much different because Brandon is more of like a real hands-on kind of there kind of guy. He's always there. He has his assistant that's helping out and stuff, but he's always there. He's always dialing up sounds. He's deep in it with you, and a really cool thing about him that, again, I think is how the greatest leaders lead. He leads from within. He's never telling you that he's the shit, and he's the leader, and you've got to listen to him because he won all these Grammys, and he's so successful. You just feel it. You just feel it by the way he behaves. You really do, man. Yeah, he's got such a respectful way, and he doesn't – it's like the great –

The great leaders, they don't have to fucking talk themselves up. You know, they don't have to. They can work and the work speaks for itself. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I find the producer artist thing. So I've just always found it so fascinating because I think it's like mystifying. It's such a very. Yeah. When you find somebody and it works, it's it's like unbelievable. And I think there's just that that's rare, you know, as many times as people try. Yeah, it's a wild thing. I like it when it's like, so why aren't you just in the band at this point? you know like when when you're the fifth like why doesn't the beatles have five people instead of the beatles and the fifth beetle like why isn't nigel in radiohead by now just like right but i i'd like to think that they're like nigel's like i don't want to be in fucking radio i mean i know how to make your little song sound good but i mean i don't want to be attached i don't want to fucking go on tour well think about it this way i don't want to go somebody we were talking i was talking about this with somebody the other day I think the coach, I mean, it's been this way for so long for a reason, because imagine if the coach was playing football with the team, that he would have no perspective on the game, you know, because he would be in there trying to play the game. Belichick has awful hands. It's just like that really blew my mind. He's getting older, too. I think that's that reason, you know, because you need the coach who can see. The whole thing from a broader perspective. You've got to be top down, as they say. Bird's eye. Macro, not micro. Love that space. Jim, that's great. All right, Jim, thanks for joining us. Well, Jim, thanks for talking to us about everything but your album. It was great. Yeah, thanks for relaxing. It comes out Friday, right? It comes out tomorrow. Tomorrow, yeah. All right, congratulations. Congratulations. Thanks so much. Huge. We appreciate it. Thank you. And hopefully we see you soon. Have a good afternoon. Take care, y'all. It might take you half a lifetime. Might take you 24 hours to do it. Can't you take just one more? It might take you half a lifetime.